Episode 10: Grace Jones

Grace Jones - Photographed by Shervin Lainez

Interview Transcript

Adam: Welcome to The Cockatoo, reporting on what Australians in the music industry are up to in the USA. My name is Adam Burke and we're coming to you from Hollywood, California, which is Tongva and Chumash country. Today, we are joined by Grace Jones, who is a former journalist and now a music publicist. This year, Grace celebrates 10 years at Grandstand HQ, one of the industry's most respected PR agencies.

Grace works with artists from around the world, including Australians, Courtney Barnett, Julia Jacklin, and Royel Otis, Waxahatchee out of Alabama, and IDLES out of the UK, among others. How does one go from being an Australian journalist to representing some of the coolest bands going around right now? Well, let's find out. Welcome, Grace.

Grace: Hi. How're you going?

Adam: I'm very well and great to be with you today. Let's jump into it. Where in Australia did you grow up?

Grace: Darwin. Not sure you get too many people on the podcast from Darwin. I was born in Darwin and lived in Maningrida for a couple of years. My parents were teachers out in Arnhem Land, but then went to school in Darwin. Graduated from RMIT in Melbourne, did journalism there, and then did the regional circuit as a regional journalist does. Did Broken Hill, Wagga Wagga, a few months in Mount Gambier, and then ended up at Triple J in Sydney at the end of all that. That was my entry path to journalism, but also through Triple J, into music as well.

Adam: Let's fast forward. When did you move to the US?

Grace: I did South by Southwest in 2007. I thought it sounded like a good time. I did that, had a very good time, probably too good a time, I'd say. Then came back to Sydney that year and basically said, "I'm going to move to America next year." Top of 2008, did South By again, and then from there moved to New York, and that was the beginning of the still-going USA adventure.

Adam: At the time you go to South By in 2007, you're working for Triple J. What were you doing specifically for Triple J at that time?

Grace: I was a newsreader. We were situated down in the newsroom, so we weren't typically working upstairs at their Ultimo offices, but we would be doing this three-minute broadcast basically. You'd do morning, lunchtime, and then the afternoon shift as well. I did weekends as well. For those you do news updates and everything just for that morning section.

I then as I became more interested in the music side of things, broadened the scope of what that was beyond just doing the hourly news bulletins. I started covering a little bit more about the music industry in Australia. We'd always cover the ARIA Awards. Just getting a little bit more involved in terms of, what are some of the things that are happening within the music scene in Australia

Adam: There's a lot to explore here. First of all, you're going from a career in journalism at one of the most respected-- you're at the top of the tree in the Australian media landscape, certainly when it comes to public media like we would have NPR here or something like that, and BBC in the UK. There's that career change happening. In addition, you show up in a town where you don't know people. Let's get into that. You arrive in New York, you don't know anyone. Where do you live?

Grace: A friend of a friend knew an Australian who was out here, Ellie. She was doing music. I think she was working for AAM but I didn't know her at all. We just had some mutual friends back home. She had a room going. I rented that for a couple of months and I interned. I ate shit and interned.

Adam: Where'd you intern?

Grace: I interned at Vice of all places.

Adam: Very New York.

Grace: Very New York. Vice at that moment was really the be-all and end-all, but it was a really exciting place to be. The magazines were huge. Culturally, it was just having such a big moment.

My last day was when I got told after having to run errands, getting bed sheets and something from Bed Bath and Beyond. I made a joke about it like, "Oh, well." They asked if I was okay, and I was like, "Yes, I think I got it." Then the guy turned around and said, "Look, you should just be happy you're not cleaning out the fridge." That was when I was just like, "All right. Okay. I can eat a bit of humble pie but this is not right." I very politely never came back again. Basically, I had a three-month window where I just had to find a job.

At the time it was 2008 and the McCarren pool parties were happening in Williamsburg, which I think now is still pretty legendary for anyone who was in New York at that time.

Grace: They were cool and I was like, "Well, they're doing something interesting. I'll see if there's anything there." I contacted the people who ran the pool parties, just absolutely cold calling. I said that I was a journalist and had been a journalist, I should say. They put me in touch with Kip Kouri, who was a publicist for the pool parties. I sent him an email and asked if I could come and intern.

I interned for about, I would say maybe four months, and then got offered a job.

I worked at Tell All Your Friends for four years in the end but that was how I initially got my start.

Adam: Tell us about that professional change and how you went from being a reporter to a publicist.

Grace: The actual move itself was fine in terms of the skill level.

What I didn't really anticipate was I just didn't really understand how vast the American music industry is. It's so, so, so massive compared to Australia. Radio over here is-- I think I arrogantly were like, "Yes, I know radio" because I had that background at Triple J, and it's just there's nothing in common. American radio is so vast. I've been here, god, what, like 16 years, 17 years. I still don't understand American radio in a way that I wish I did. It's so complicated. I think I underestimated just what the music industry was going to be like and how vast it was going to be.

The journalism side of things was easy. When you're a publicist, you're not just in the media side of things, you're a part of an industry team, a very big part of an industry team as well. I'd never worked with managers before. I'd never worked with labels before. I'd never actually worked with a booking agent before. It was like the journalism to publicist side or one switch was easy on one aspect, but the switch from journalist to music industry was a huge jump and I was learning a lot very, very quickly.

Adam: You're at Tell All Your Friends. Kip hires you over there through the McCarren Pool contact. Do you get handed some artists? Do you bring any artists? How does that go down?

Grace: No, I was his assistant. I was really lucky and I love Kip to death. When I was at Tell All Your Friends, during that time, he was working with a lot of the French Kiss bands when they were having a bit of a moment. I got to do the first Passion Pit EP, the first two Passion Pit records, which was really exciting, Harlem Shakes, White Rabbits, The Walkmen. These were bands at the time, which in Brooklyn were just like the biggest and the buzziest and it was really, really exciting. I did the first Local Natives record with him, which was really cool.

Then from there I was able to start collecting my own clients. There was another publicist at the company as well who was doing the same thing. She was American, she had a different path, but she also came at the company. She got Grimes, very, very early stages of Grimes. Sounds like a disease. She got Grimes, it's all over her. No. She was working with Grimes and then I had a couple of good clients as well, and we decided to start our own company. I did that.

I left Tell All Your Friends in 2012 and started a company called Requiem. We did that for two years--

Grace: It was with a person called Ashley Ayers.

Grace: She was another publicist. I say was because she sadly passed away a few years ago.

Adam: I'm sorry to hear that.

Grace: She had worked in the industry in different ways, and then I actually got her a job at Tell All Your Friends through some other friends as-- that's what the music industry is about. It's like, you just recommend stuff to your mates really. Well, it used to be anyway. I don't know if it's like that anymore. Her and I were at Tell All Your Friends together, then we launched Requiem together pretty soon after that.

I think we launched it in May, 2012, and then it must have been October when I started working with Courtney Barnett, which is still probably my all-time favorite client, human, person, friendship, everything. Courtney's just so incredibly special. We had a good run. We did it for two years. We had Grimes, we had FKA Twigs. It definitely was a cool roster.

As Courtney blew up, I definitely began to understand that being at a small indy PR company was just not going to cut it. I could see the writing on the wall and that Courtney was going to get massive, and if I wanted to continue to be part of this, I also needed to step up my own operation and what I was doing. 2014 is when we ended Requiem and I joined with Grandstand.

Adam: In fact, you're a American publicist. You never were a publicist in Australia, and you learned the entire trade in the USA, right?

Grace: I've never worked in the music industry in Australia, which is really funny because when I lived in Australia, I was really good friends with a lot of people who worked in-- my besties were all in the music industry, but I actually was never really a part of it. Triple J, you kind of are, but you're also not. There's a separation there for sure

Adam: Grandstand represents a large swath of clients from around the world, represents festivals. It's a very significant company, but also seems to have some really, really good Australian artists as well.

How have you gone about your publicity practice with attracting Australian artists versus working with US artists? Do you find yourself erring a little bit more toward Australia, or how do you go about that?

Grace: It's funny, because I think what happens, and I don't blame people for doing this, but I think for the Australian music industry, as soon as they see one thing that works, everyone tries to get in on that. It's like, "Oh, that person's doing well." Whether it's a booking agent, whether it's a label who's had success with Australian artists, whether it's a publicist, et cetera. That makes sense. I think that's smart. You look and see what's working and see if that could make sense for you.

As soon as Courtney blew up, I started getting sent a lot of Australian artists. I've made a really conscious decision that I didn't want to be the Australian who only worked with Australians. That wasn't appealing for a number of reasons. I didn't want to get pigeonholed, essentially. I wanted to make sure that I was always getting a chance to work with the artists who I like to work with, whether they were from the UK or Europe or wherever. I just was really adamant on that.

I was getting sent a lot of Australian stuff, but was fortunate enough to be pretty picky about the things I decided to take on. I've always been really, really picky with the things that I've decided to take on. I think that's in part why I have the roster that I have. It's because it's stuff that I really, really like to listen to myself and stuff that I enjoy. Not just stuff that necessarily has the biggest paycheck or the things that you necessarily think are going to be big.

Adam: You're celebrating your 10th year anniversary at Grandstand this year. Congratulations.

Grace: Thank you.

Adam: Tell us about where you're at today. Who are your clients that take up most of your time and how's it going?

Grace: It's going good. I think the industry as always is just changing so quickly. You just always have to be willing to adapt. It's funny, I talked about 2008 when there were mass layoffs. I feel like that's happening on the industry side of things right now. As always, I think it's an interesting time to be in the music industry.

Bands now can get big without a big label machine behind them. We just have access to so much more, more music because of technology for better or for worse from an artist perspective, certainly. I think there's a lot to be really excited about. The Australian bands, I still have a pretty strong contingent of Australian bands. I think Grandstand does as well. Still working with Courtney. Royel Otis is a client I've been working with for a couple years now. We've done a few EPs, we just did the album. That's really, really exciting to see those guys just work so, so hard.

Phoebe Go is a new Australian singer-songwriter I just started working with, and we did her debut album this year. I think she's absolutely wonderful as well. Spacey Jane are going to have another record soon, I'm told. I'm excited about it when it's ready. Julia Jacklin just said another tour over here. I just love Julia. I think she's just impeccable on every level.

In general, other bands, IDLES, Girl in Red, Khruangbin, Alvvays, Rico Nasty's going to have a new record. Waxahatchee is having a huge year. Katie Gavin of and MUNA has a side project. Then I also work in the festival and event space as well. I never want to just work strictly in music because I just think that space is so competitive, you end up pitching people against each other.

I think it's good to have people who can pitch off the back. If you're only having album clients and that's all your business is, then it's going to get crowded. I work on Outside Lands which is a music festival in San Francisco, which I love. That's a real treat every year. We have a great team at Grandstand who worked together on that. We just finished Netflix Is A Joke, which is a big comedy festival, which is just a big 500 plus shows that take over LA every two years. It's nice being able to do things that's a little bit outside of the music wheelhouse as well.

Adam: obviously one of the questions that so many Australian artists are trying to work out is how to make it in the US. Whether or not they want to relocate here, to have it as a viable market solves a lot of problems. Is there anything that you see as a commonality in the artists that are making it out here?

Grace: The touring factor is a big part of it. I think when you're breaking for the first time, you just have to be prepared. You just have to eat shit. You have to sit in a van and it's going to suck. That's probably what it's going to look like. I think I would say, I think trying to get a really strong team in the US before you get over here, it is that chicken and the egg thing, which is really tough because it's like, "Well, how do you get a team over here if you've never played over here?"

If you have some decent buzz going in Australia and you're working with good people, there's so many great managers in Australia who do have really great contacts, or at least can put you in the right direction. If you can start to work with a publicist, if you can get a booking agent, I would say a booking agent is probably more important than a publicist to begin with. Even if you're just doing something with a small US label that can help put you on the radar, I think that's helpful.

I think the way that bands break, whether they're international bands or American bands here in the US has just changed so much, even I'd say in the last 12 months. I think TikTok and the way the A&R process now works around TikTok is turning things up on its head again. How to be successful? Have a TikTok viral hit, I guess. That seems to be working for other people, but how you do that? I've got absolutely no idea.

Adam: Just get a TikTok viral hit and you're done, right? Simple.

Grace: No big deal at all.

Adam: Hope the algorithm's your friend today.

Grace: Yes. I think it is that thing. It's like you've got to figure out what kind of artist you want to be, and you need to stay true to that. If you don't want to do all those things and you shouldn't do it, but also if you're not using social media, especially TikTok, then you're going to have the odds stacked against you. That doesn't mean it's impossible, and that doesn't mean that if that's not what your comfort level is, or if you don't want to do that you don't have a chance of success over here, but that is where A&Rs at labels are looking for now.

That is where booking agents look at Spotify numbers and figure out routing for tours. If you're not playing the digital game, then it is going to be harder to break through. If you have a good team in Australia and you're patient, and you're willing to spend the money and put in the time, it can still happen for you, absolutely. It's tough. It's really, really competitive. You're competing against bands who live here.

Any artist I have who even lives in New York compared to LA I think is more-- I think LA is definitely come up in terms of a media center for bands and as an industry and in general, but New York still is where the majority of things happen. If you're living in those places, it's easy to just hop on a plane and get to New York to do this thing, or these awards are happening, or this red carpet's happening, or that kind of thing. Being in market is always going to present more opportunities for you.

Adam: It's great advice. Speaking about yourself personally, if you could rewind to 2007, 2008 when you made that move across, is there any advice that you'd give yourself?

Grace: No, because I think if I gave myself any advice now, it would-- the reason I think I was able to do what I did was because I didn't have hindsight. It was just pure adrenaline and making decisions just based on like, "Well, I could do this." I didn't really think things through that much, and I think in a way that was why I was able to do it. I think if I actually had thought through it in a more thoughtful and strategic way, I probably would've realized how hard the odds were going to be stacked against me, and I probably wouldn't have done it.

I'd say from a life perspective, I wish I hadn't have drunk as much as I did over the years. I recently cut back. Well, a year or two ago, I cut down my drinking pretty significantly. life is infinitely easier. Especially when you're going out late at night and having to wake up the next morning and do meetings and calls and the rest of it, not drinking and having a more balanced alcohol-free, or at least alcohol-minimizing lifestyle makes a huge difference in how successful you are. That would probably be my one bit of advice, just don't drink as much. Don't have the third beer, or don't have the fourth beer because it doesn't do you any favors, that's for sure.

Adam: Well, congratulations on everything you've achieved so far. You are one of our leaders in your field here in the United States, and all Australians should be very proud of what you've achieved, and I'm sure there's a lot more to come. Thank you very much for talking to us today, Grace.

Grace: Thank you so much. This was really fun.

Adam: Really nice to talk to you. Thanks to everyone for listening. This is The Cockatoo. It's part of the Australian Music Alliance. We are under the Pitchhiker Foundation. It's a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. We look to help music travel, Please support us in any way that you help nonprofits. In particular, listen to the stories we tell, share it with your friends. Thank you very much, and we'll catch you on an upcoming edition.